Jill Hargrave interview: documentary writer and producer

I recorded this interview with producer and writer, Jill Hargrave, whose latest documentary is "Road to Liberty: Through Their Eyes" about the American Revolution. 

What has your career basically been?

I had a very different life in England. I was a pop singer in the 1960s on the Parlophone label (the same as the Beatles). I was only 16 when it happened. I stayed in show business for about three and a half years, then became a blackjack dealer. Through that work I got the chance to work on the QE2, where I met Americans who told me I’d fit in well in the United States. They sponsored me, and I arrived in 1972.
I went back to college in America and majored in journalism, graduating around age 30. An internship at WCBS led me into documentaries. I’ve been producing, writing, and directing them ever since, eventually forming my own company, Eagle Vision Productions, in 1997. I work because I love it; I don’t consider myself retired.
How did you manage to stay consistently employed in such a tough industry?
I could do everything: raise the money, write the scripts, shoot, and edit. I learned linear editing, then taught myself Avid. I became a one-woman band while still collaborating with strong team members. Being reliable and willing to learn new skills helped me keep getting work.
How do you raise funds for a documentary?
I use the Foundation Directory (free for nonprofits) to match my project with foundations and corporations whose interests align. For "Road to Liberty: Through Their Eyes," I combined small grants, a successful Kickstarter campaign, and support from longtime contacts and family foundations. You have to be persistent, unafraid of rejection, and good at selling your passion.
Tell us about your current documentary, Road to Liberty: Through Their Eyes
It focuses on the formative years of the American Revolution, especially the often-overlooked 1776 New York–New Jersey campaign. It includes the African American experience from 1775 onward and uses many contemporary quotes from Washington and others. The film is now complete and will be distributed via public television stations and other channels.
You’re British. Has anyone given you a hard time for making a film about the American Revolution?
Not really. After 52 years here, I tell people that if I had been in America in 1776, I would have been a rebel. I tried to show both sides fairly; it was in many ways a civil war.
How do you write a documentary script?
I start with a detailed blueprint/outline. Then I interview historians, transcribe the interviews, pull the best soundbites, and build the script in short segments: narration, quotes, and visuals. I lay down the full audio track first (narration + interviews + quotes), time it, cut it to length (max 58 minutes for PBS), and only then add the images and B-roll.
You were a pop singer as a teenager. How did that start?
My brother wrote songs and my sister originally sang them. One night I sang along in the car and a producer liked our voices together, turning us into the sister act “Jackie and Jill.” We signed with Northern Songs (the Beatles’ publisher) and recorded for Parlophone/EMI. We worked clubs in northern England and entertained American troops in Europe. It was an amazing experience at 16 and 17.
What were some of the challenges of being a teenage girl in the music business in the 1960s?
The main challenges were the expectations from men in the business and suddenly having a lot of freedom. My sister and I were very different personalities, which eventually led us to part ways professionally.
You also write screenplays. What advice do you have for writers?
Keep writing and find or form a supportive writers’ group. I joined Stage 32 during COVID and built a wonderful ongoing writers’ room that still meets regularly. Writing doesn’t have to be lonely. Enter good festivals strategically (Austin Film Festival is excellent for screenwriters) and just keep practicing.
Any final advice for people who want to produce documentaries?
Have real passion for creating. Be willing to learn every aspect of the process and be ready to troubleshoot constantly. Build relationships, network, and never be afraid to ask for support. Most of all, enjoy what you do — the money comes second.

Chuck Swirsky interview

I recorded this interview with Bulls broadcaster Chuck Swirsky, He wrote a book, Always a Pleasure, about his sports broadcasting career.

Why did you write the book?

I wrote it because even if I can help one person, whether it’s encouragement, inspiration, or just the basic staples of our industry, then it was worth it. I’ve been very, very blessed. I’ve experienced challenges, introspective moments, and a lot of joy in this business. I don’t believe in luck, I don’t believe in breaks. I believe in hard work. I believe there’s a journey laid out for us, and along that journey you’re going to go through different things—some good, some difficult—and you have to stay with it. That’s really the foundation of why I wrote the book.

 

You talk about your faith publicly, but the book itself isn’t very religious. Was that a decision?

Yes, that was intentional. Not because I don’t profess my faith (I do, many times) but I wanted to stay within the parameters of my career and how I got into the business. When people read something like this, I think they’re more interested in the path—how you moved from place to place, why you made certain decisions, what you experienced along the way. So I stayed with that. The stories, the movement, the work. Maybe down the road there will be another book that gets more into my personal life and faith, but for this one I wanted it to be about the career.

 

You emphasize hard work a lot. Where does that come from?

That comes from my parents. My mom was an educator; she taught high school and then grade school, and she loved her students. She was a tremendous communicator. My dad was a United States Naval officer, very decorated, very disciplined. So I grew up in that kind of environment. But discipline doesn’t mean what people think it means. It’s not punishment. It’s what I call “freedom within boundaries.” You’re allowed to have freedom, but there are lines. If you go outside those lines, you’re going to pay the price. If you stay within them, there are opportunities there. People go through life sometimes as the constant victim; blaming this, blaming that. Everybody has issues. Life is not a straight line. The competition isn’t with the person next to you; it’s within. And if you understand that, you’re going to be better off.

 

You’ve seen that play out in sports too?

Yes. I talked to a professional athlete years after he left the sport, five or ten years later, and he told me something that really stuck with me. He said in the last couple of years of his career, he went on cruise control. He didn’t work as hard as he should have. He should have trained more, should have pushed himself more. And he said it still bothers him. That’s the thing: we’re only given a certain amount of time. Whether you’re an athlete, whether you’re in broadcasting, whether you’re doing anything else. You have to make the most of that opportunity. Tomorrow is promised to no one. I’ll never forget that.

 

You tell that story about the jazz club; what happened there?

I was 24 years old, working in Columbus, Ohio, right before I came to Chicago. I went to a jazz club with a friend. It was packed, loud, people everywhere; just one of those nights. During a break, the lead singer came over. He knew someone in our group, introduced himself, and started talking with us. At some point he asked me what I did. I told him I was a sports talk show host. And he said, “I’m going to give you some advice.” And I’m thinking, okay, here we go. But then he looked right at me and said, “You better take care of your homework, because if you don’t, somebody will.” And he repeated it. And I don’t know why, but everything just went quiet for me in that moment. I tuned everything out. Because what he was really saying was: if you don’t prepare, if you don’t bring it every day, somebody else will. There are always people behind you who want your job. That stayed with me. It reinforced what my parents had taught me, but it hit me in a different way right then and there.

 

What was it like when you first got to Chicago?

I came from Columbus to Chicago, WCF L, and I did get a raise, but I was way over my head. I was not ready for that market. But the station itself was struggling, and because of that I was afforded the opportunity to make mistakes. We didn’t have a producer. It was just me and an engineer. Every day was a challenge. You’d do an interview and think, okay, I should have done that better. Or how do I connect better? What do I need to change? And you just keep adjusting, inch by inch. It wasn’t polished. It wasn’t easy. But it was a place where you could grow because you had to.

 

How did you move from there into bigger roles?

A big part of it was exposure. There was a radio-TV critic in Chicago, Gary Deeb, and his column carried a lot of weight. Everybody read it: program directors, general managers, people making decisions. He wrote some very flattering things about my work, and that led to opportunities. One of those was the Loop, which at that time was the number one rock station in North America. They had major personalities, they really owned the city along with WGN. They wanted to push the envelope and bring in a sports voice, and I ended up doing both morning and afternoon drive there. That was a big step. From there, I moved around and worked at WGN, WJR in Detroit, University of Michigan, the Raptors, eventually the Bulls. Sometimes I took pay cuts along the way. But I was always looking at opportunity, not just salary.

 

So you weren’t making decisions based on money?

No. Money has never dictated a job for me. I’ve taken pay cuts at different points, to go to Detroit, to do Michigan, to go to the Raptors. But I can’t tell someone else what to do. Everyone has different responsibilities, different situations. What I do believe is that if it’s feasible to chase your dream, you should. Because you don’t want to look back and say, “If only.” And whatever you do, you go to work with energy, enthusiasm, and as a team player. Leave your ego at the door. Ego can be healthy, but if it gets out of control, it can hurt you and the people around you.

 

How do you deal with egos in the business?

There are a lot of them. And I’ll be honest; sometimes I didn’t handle them well. I wasn’t mature enough in certain situations. You have to go through those moments. You go through the fire, and that’s how you become better, as a person, as a leader. If you don’t learn from your mistakes, something’s wrong. I can tell you I was a much better sports director later in my career than I was earlier. When I was younger, especially in Chicago, I was under a lot of pressure and surrounded by very experienced people. You’re learning in real time. And over time, you get better at handling those situations.

American English - vouch for you

I've got a lot of American English phrases to share, and here's one I hear or see often: "vouch for you." When someone says they can “vouch for you,” it means they are willing to say that you are trustworthy or reliable.

For instance, let’s say you are applying for a job, and you ask a former boss if you can use them as a reference. If they support you, they would say, “Don’t worry--I’ll vouch for you. You’re a great worker.”

Or if someone wants to join your private club and asks you to be a reference, you can tell the person, “I’ll vouch for you.”

The word “vouch” means to support someone’s character or confirm that they are honest or dependable. You might see it in emails; if someone wants a referral, they'll ask, "should I hire him?" to which the answer would be, "yeah, I can vouch for him."

So when someone says, “I can vouch for you,” they’re saying they trust you and are willing to say that publicly.

I also posted the audio of this explanation online. If you have suggestions for future phrases, let me know.

Things are getting real

I'm sitting in a park right now, and I'm writing this because today was the latest example of seeing people doing real things that seem like a novelty nowadays, but were always in my world. 

A few days ago, I saw a guy walking outside, smoking a cigar. The next day, I was walking through this park sitting in the same bench, reading a massive, 1000-page novel. And it was a hardcover. He was just reading it with no sound device in his ear. I asked him what he was reading and said it's rare to see someone reading a hardcover outside. I don't remember what book he told me, but another Gen Zer nearby said she read the same book, and they talked about the series. *This used to happen all the time*. 

After seeing vinyl stores that were still in business on subsequent days, today I saw another guy smoking a cigar while he was walking and talking to his associate. I told him that the smoke and smell reminded me of my uncle (who I dedicated my novel to), who was really successful, smart, and mulitifaced. Then I said I rarely see people smoking cigars, and he said people are discovering cigars due to the perceived decreased health risks and how they're better than plastic vapes. He also said non-AI activities and things are satisfying.

Maybe it's something that's happening, or just a few random people I happened to see.

p.s. the e-book version of my debut novel is still at Amazon, and the price for the print version has been reduced: buy at the Eckhartz Press site.

When I started thinking more

As I've said here and offline many times, I used to work a lot and no longer am. The first adjustment from cutting back was having time in my schedule and head to think. I didn't want to think, just wanted to do. I liked being busy and filling my time and avoiding introspection. Fast forward many months and days, and I'm carving out time to think and reflect. I recently had 12 hours of working directly with people, not at a computer near people, but directly talking to them, teaching them, etc. Then today is free, and I have more than 4 hours tomorrow. In the past it would've been no big deal, and I would've worked on top of that, and I wouldn't have had a day off between the 12 and 4+ hours; I would've looked for something to fill my day off, such as working at another gig that would've already been lined up. Or writing and editing a novel. Or something. But thinking was not a part of the plan; the goal was to stay busy and outward-facing. And in addition to dealing with workplace challenges, all the stress and stuffed schedule would keep me occupied.

But I'm no longer like that. Today I didn't schedule anything and have been doing my own thing, which requires thought and silence. Of course, I won't stay in such a condition all day because I need to see the outside world.

So of course, I'm not an introvert and never will be. I get energy around people and if the people like other people and are cool, simpatico, and interesting, then I'm super-happy and energized. A good example is the most recent train trip I took from LA to Chicago. I'd taken that trip several times before, and have gone to and from the East Coast via train. This time it was fantastic: not only were the workers all friendly and seemed to like people (which is essential for a people-facing job), but I met really interesting passengers from a variety of backgrounds. The train was also really busy and it was a combination of quiet and talkative fun. When I got home, it was very hard to adjust to my non-trip life. It was so quiet and dark and still, it seemed spooky. For a non-introvert like me, going from a stimulating, people-oriented environment to the total opposite can be jarring and disturbing. 

So what I'm writing about here is not me turning into an introvert by needing downtime, but me finally calming down enough to quietly create.

p.s. the e-book version of my debut novel is still at Amazon, and the price for the print version has been reduced: buy at the Eckhartz Press site.

Stop using comma splices

What is going on? I see all kinds of comma splices popping up all over the place, even by people who have a couple of Master's degrees. I can see why some pro writers use them; they want to break the rule for style and rhythm. But other people aren't trying the style thing; they're just wrong.

"Let me know what you think, I'll call you later." This is a comma splice because there are two independent clauses here that are separated by a comma. They each can be a sentence or can be separated by a semicolon because they relate to each other.

"Let me know what you think; I'll call you later." I just used correct punctuation because it's a teeter-totter, two independent clauses balanced out by the semicolon. 

Before, I couldn't explain all this grammatically; I just knew it was wrong. Now it seems like quick texting/posting/whatever have affected decorum 😅

Does this mean that comma splices are becoming archaic, like what's happened to "whom" and "who" (writing "She's the person I was speaking to" instead of "She's the person to whom I was speaking")? And is using a semicolon considered uptight and rigid at this point, the comma used as a casual way to communicate? 

Please, everyone, at least use correct punctuation in your work emails, and even in other emails to people you don't really know well. 

p.s. the e-book version of my debut novel is still at Amazon, and the price for the print version has been reduced: buy at the Eckhartz Press site.